Into the Electric Castle
Mindview Magazine
01-09-1998
Arjen Lucassen used to be the guitar player of dutch band Vengeance. After their break-up he concentrated on a solo-career in which the first peak was the rock opera 'The Final Experiment', released under the name Ayreon. Next album 'Actual Fantasy' was a experimental disc filled with electronics. That you can do too much, was proven by the sales numbers. With his third disc Arjen fell returned to the road of rock-opera's. 'Into The Electric Castle' is a one and a half-hour double CD that will make many happy. Lucassen spared neither time nor costs to make this project a masterpiece, featuring a range of well-known musicians. When I phoned Arjen, he was busy replying to the e-mails he got. He takes a minute to be sure nothing gets lost and then he takes the time to tell me about 'Into The Electric Castle'.
Arjen, how do you start working on a project like 'Into The Electric Castle?'?
I just start and I will worry later about where I end. I grab my guitar and start playing a bit in front of the TV. That way I create a basis that I can use later. If I would think from the start "This is going to be a rock opera and it has to be a double CD", I would get nervous and I wouldn't be able to write anything at all.
After your Ayreon debut, 'The Final Experiment', you gave us 'Actual Fantasy', a very experimental album. I personally have the feeling that 'Into The Electric Castle' is a mix of both these albums.
Somehow you're right. My first disc was experimental to me too because I had never written a rock opera. At the time I didn't know either if people would be interested. Musically 'The Final Experiment' indeed was sort of old-fashioned. I didn't want to repeat myself on 'Actual Fantasy', despite the success of the previous album. It did become a very experimental disc with lots of synthesizers, weird sounds etcetera. That's why I decided to create a long story again with bigger names as guest singers and musicians. If the decline in sales numbers would continue, it would mean the end of my musical career. That's why I wanted to go for it, all the way, with this disc, both emotionally and financially.
You need a storyline for a rockopera. Did it take a long time for the story to get a shape to it?
The story was the last thing I did. I first finish the music and then I start looking at what the music makes me think of. An important factor of course is, who you can have to do the vocals. I composed a long list of people that I wanted to work with. On top of the list were names like Kate Bush, Paul McCartney, David Gilmore and Robert Plant. The chance that one of those would say yes to it is close to zero, but you never know. The chance that Fish would say yes was very slim too. The storyline was a bit dependant of the line-up of singers for the disc. I wrote the storyline with the singers in mind. Initially I wanted it to be a sequel to 'The Final Experiment', but that just got too complicated. Finally it was a sudden idea that led me to this simple science fiction story.
You say 'science fiction story', but there are lots of references to the past, because the characters are from different eras in history?
Well, I invited different generations of singers for the project too. One of them is twenty, another one thirty or fourty. The oldest even is fifty. The fact that there are references to historical names, is the basis of the story. When you start the CD you hear an enormous bang. On that moment eight people from different times are transported to another dimension. They absolutely don't know where they are. It's dark, and the only illumination they have are the stars. Suddenly they hear a voice that tells them that they are in a new dimension and that they have to find their way to the electric castle, because that's their only way out, back to their own dimension. He also tells them that probably not all of them will survive. The first disc is about their search for the castle, the second about their adventures within the castle towards the gates leading to their own dimension.
There are some victims on the journey. The first one, I think the biggest name on the disc, is Fish, who played the role of highlander.
Fish also was the most expensive (Arjen is laughing). Fish is a very busy guy. It cost me a huge effort to get in touch with him. We tried everything to convince him and finally we caught the fish. When we finally gave his manager a deadline for his decision to participate in the project or not, Fish phoned me personally a few hours later. A few days later I was in his studio in England. Fish was the perfect person to play the role of highlander and I really needed someone who was able to be an actor with his voice. I think he is one of the few who can actually do that. Fish wrote his own lyrics too, so it's nice that besides his fee he also gets some of the credits. When I was in England, he just sold his house (with studio). It was a madhouse out there. It was not a situation where I could hang around for too long, so I was very happy that he was willing to sing three songs. I told him the storyline, the lyrics for the other vocalists that he needed to know and where he had to be angry and when he would die.
The second character to die is Anneke van Giersbergen?
Anneke didn't want to sing in the project at first. She was working hard with The Gathering and she didn't think it was okay towards her band. But she was the perfect person to me to sing the egyptian's role, so I kept nagging and nagging to convince her. I sent her the music and finally she said yes, under the condition that her role would be a minor one.
Furthermore the Indian (Sharon den Adel) and the barbarian (Jay van Feggelen) don't survive the journey to the castle.
I personally really love Jay van Feggelen's lyrics. I asked him to write some of the lyrics. He is someone who immediately feels what you mean when you tell him your ideas. In the beginning I wanted him to be a gangster-type but he convinced me to play the role of a barbarian because he is a huge fan of Conan. With his unusual vocal sound he gave everything a bluesy atmosphere. I had actually never heard of Sharon den Adel (Within Temptation). I had never heard of her band until she mentioned in Aardschok magazine that I was one of the persons influencing her music. I was really flattered by this. After that I heard them play at the Dynamo and went to meet them backstage. I thanked her for her kind words and she told me she had really enjoyed the first Ayreon disc and that I shouldn't forget about her if I ever planned to do something like that again. Because Sharon's voice is different from Anneke's I decided to have them both sing on the album. Sharon said yes after the first telephone call.
It isn't that hard to imagine all these people in their particular roles.
I thought that was a necessity. Take Damian Wilson for example, being an englishman he is the perfect guy to be a knight of the Round Table. He was for me the crown on the work when it comes to the vocalists. I discovered him when he was playing with Landmarq, but he also plays in Threshold. He is a great singer on stage too. I saw him singing with Threshold recently and as an encore they played a ballad. He sang it so strong and so clear that I definitely wanted him for this project. After their show I visited him in their dressing room. When I told gim about the project he got so enthousiastic that a few days later he came to my house to record his vocals. He did all his vocals in one day. He got the main role in Les Miserables in England by the way. That shouldn't be a problem at all for someone who can sing that strong without getting tired, even after hours. To him that role is a great honour. I am certain that I will not think twice if I ever get the chance to work with him again. Edward is the 'steady factor' in Ayreon. He is unique. He is not an emotional singer but a melodic singer. I tell him what the melody lines are like, and he sings them accurately and never off key. There are not many people who can do that. Edwin offered his talents himself. I didn't think it would work in the beginning. I already knew him as singer of Omega and thought his singing was too theatrical. But when he visited me he grabbed a guitar and just started playing some songs, from U2 and others. He proved to have a raw and melodic voice that would fit his role perfectly. I hired him immediately. Edwin really wanted to live inside his role. Here in the studio he actually became the Roman that he played. He was grunting in the microphone, that's about how angry he got. He even grew a little beard, as the Romans used to do in those days, though no one would see it. He is a very emotional guy, who can sing ballads as well as melodies.
You play the role of hippie yourself in the story?
Not really. I had someone else for the job and he sang the entire thing. He sounded exactly like John Lennon. When he realised how big this project was growing, he suddenly started demanding things. He showed up with a contract and I showed him the door. I decided to do the role of the hippie myself.
Did that go easy for you?
I was furious. I didn't sleep all night. I think I was so angry, that it went very well. My wife is my major reviewer, and she was thrilled by my vocals.
You asked a man called Peter Daltrey to introduce the songs.
Yes, but he is not related to...... I found Peter after a search for seventies bands. That way I discovered Kaleidoscope. After many years I finally succeeded to collect their entire work including bootlegs. Then I heard that their singer, that was Peter, signed a deal with a Japanese label for a solo-album. I wrote those people a letter with money for the CD. A few weeks later I received a letter from Peter who thanked me for buying the disc, that hadn't been released yet. I sent him all my material then, except for the Vengeance stuff, and we have stayed in touch. I think that right now he has a job as postman or something like that. When I told him I asked Gilmore and McCartney, he wrote that he wanted to return a favor because I had played on his solo-project. Though he is not a big name in music, I decided to take him on the job. I explained the story to him and he wrote his lyrics himself.
For the musical completion of the whole project you managed to hire the creme de la creme of the dutch music business.
Ed Warby is a real virtuoso on drums. I was looking for a drummer like the Dream Theater guy, but he would also have to swing like Bonham (Led Zeppelin). Led by an advice from Oscar Holleman I asked Ed, whom I only knew from Gorefest. Within two days all the drums were on tape and Ed was happy that he could do something different on his drums for a change. No samples and other tricks, but just hitting it with only two microphones recording everything. I think that was the most important move for the album. I had lots of choices for the keyboards. Initially I hired Robby Valentine only for a little piano piece, but it became a lot more than that. I played something for him and he changed it into complete symphonies. Clive Nolan is a really big name in the sympho-world. He was eager to participate himself and thought it was a pity that he couldn't play more. He will be on my next project for sure. Rene Merkelbach is a keyboard-player I always ask and Ton Scherpenzeel is one of my favourites in the progressive world. Though sunthesizersolos are not his specialty he played on the album, and even for free! In the beginning I had Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) in mind to play flute on the album. However, he just left for a holiday and planned to go on tour right after that. Thijs van Leer of course was a great second choice, but it was a giant task to convince him. The first time I phoned him, I got his wife on the phone. She was kind of sarcastic about my whole project. Later on I managed to talk to himself and he sent me to his manager. When I thought everything was arranged he still had to ask his band (Focus) if it was okay for him to do that. It really made me sick. I phoned him to tell him to forget all about it. When I asked him to return my tape, he said "Why? I'm just doing it." Two weeks later he was in my studio. The man is really good. I don't like it if people are arrogant, but when you see him playing you know why. He can improvise as well as playing from written notes. The other classical musicians I hired were not very good at improvising The collaboration with Thijs, in the end, exceeded my expectations.
With four survivors in the story, you created the space to make a sequel to it?
I haven't thought of that. I don't think you should expect a sequel though. I don't want to repeat myself. If I'll make a new rock opera, I'll probably just write a new story. There indeed are four that survive and return to their own dimension. The hippie (Arjen's role) returns to the sixties and thinks he had an incredible trip. The Futureman (Edward Reekers) returns to his place in the future. The Roman (Edwin Balogh) overcame his own fears and the knight (Damian Wilson) returns to King Arthur and found the Holy Grail within himself. The mystery voice they heard belonged to an alien, whose race had evoluted that far, that they lost all emotions. That's why they created this experiment. They regularly study a number of humans plucked out of their dimension, to experience their emotions. A possible sequel might be exactly the same story, but with different characters.
The story is about The Electric Castle. Isn't that the name of your studio?
Initially I made up that name for Oscar's studio. When he moved his studio to a new address he thought of changing the name into RS29, because that was related to the new address. When I visited his studio I saw a few candle holders between all that electronic equipment. "Why don't you name your studio The Electric Castle?" At the end he decided to keep the name RS29, so I named my home studio 'The Electric Castle'. The 'Into' thing I actually took from Michael Schenker's 'Into The Arena'. I imagined me stepping into that arena with the lion approaching.
Don't you dream of doing this on stage?
I wouldn't want to initiate this myself. I like creating, not repeating myself. I have become very shut off from the world and someone living like me shouldn't true to glue a project like that together. It would be extremely difficult to get the original singers back together. You'd also have to create special effects, like Plink Floyd, because you can never come close to the effect of the CD. Besides, when you have done this live for twenty or thirty times, it isn't spontaneous anymore. When the singers come to my studio, it is the first time they sing it. It isn't rehearsed and I think that's the great stimulus to drive them to great performances. Of course, if someone would feel like making a production or movie out of this, like Tommy, I would be honoured.
Yes, but would you have demands... for example about the roles...
It would of course be nice if every original singer would play his original role, but it would really surprise me if someone would manage to make that happen. I don't think I would work on a project like that myself. I would be too difficult. When I give something out of my hands, I really give it out of my hands. As long as people would know I'm not involved, I would be okay with it.
The CD-booklet is magnificent too.
I was searching for a long time to find the right artist. One day my brother suggested a Belgian man, named Jef Bertels. I phoned him and when I went to visit him with the guy who did my layout (John van de Oetelaar), he showed us all his paintings. I don't know why he isn't world famous. He just sits there in his little home in Belgium creating art with a capital A, and no one knows about him.....
How is your life, now that everything is finished and the CD is in the stores?
I am a weird guy when it comes to that. The minute I finish the last note, it is over for me. The fun is over. The process of creation and working towards a result are over by then and when we reach that final moment, I want to start something new, not plunge into a deep hole. I still like to do interviews then, because it all still is fresh in my mind.
But are you already thinking of new things in the back of your mind then?
In the front of my mind, yes. In a very relaxed way I start experimenting a bit. But I'm going to take my time for the next project. There should be time to relax, to enjoy my running or rowing. I just hope that this project opened the door a bit further to have a few really big names on my next project.
Your record label really lets you have it your way.
We have a unique cooperation. I think something like this has been very rarely seen before. We phone about five times a day. Of course we have arguments too, like the white CD-case for the Electric Castle. Hans, my label's director, wanted to surprise me with it, but I myself thought that I made kind of a dark album and I thought the white box wasn't fitting at all. But he means well and usually we are on the same wave length. We know where we stand and we will be working together for at least the next ten years, no major label will break that connection. personal happiness is most important. I never again want to deal with a manager who is too busy for me, or a director that is too hard to get in touch with. Hans works for it, a 100% percent. That is the perfect situation, isn't it?
Arjen Lucassen prefers to work alone, Platenblad Magazine, December 1998
After his success with hardrockbands Bodine, and especially Vengeance, it was quiet for a while around Arjen Lucassen. But his return was strong with his progressive metal project Ayreon, from which appeared the third disc last fall, called Into The Electric Castle. Amongst others this album features Thijs van Leer, Ton Scherpenzeel, Edward Reekers and Fish, the former singer of Marillion. This new (double) album has been praised by the music press almost unanimously and sells very well, so Arjen proves that symphonic rock is not an anachronism. In other aspects as well Arjen can be regarded succesful, because just recently he got married (in utmost secrecy) and lives in a beautiful, rebuilt farmhouse. On the premises are his studio (filled with beautiful guitars, keyboards and electronics), a sauna and a stable for the two ponies that are grazing on a large meadow.
Arjen took his time to tell us about his extraordinary career. This was in his atmospherically decorated attic room, between rows of albums, piles of CDs and shelves full of videotapes. On his widescreen television a video is played after the interview of a show with Vengeance and Barry Hay of the song Back Home. He is a unique dutch rock artist.
What kind of boy was little Arjen?
Haha, damn, what am I supposed to tell you about that? I was born in Hilversum and raised in The Hague's neighborhood 'Bloemenbuurt'. I always was very introvert and didn't go anywhere. But when I discovered the guitar I knew where to go.
How old were you when that happened?
Much too old in fact, I think 14 or 15. I discovered The Sweet shortly before that, and I decided I wanted to do that too. But to be honest I was too lazy to play the guitar. I started a 'playback'-band with some friends at school and I played the singer with a wig and my mom's juwels. I'm okay now though! We tried that a couple of times. The first performance at school was a success. Our name was The Flying Potatoes and we played songs by Slade and The Sweet. After that we visited other schools too. At one of these schools I met a boy who said The Sweet was for fags, and he advised me to listen to a Deep Purple album. At first that seemed a bit too heavy for me, but I decided to give one of their albums a try, I think it was Made In Japan. I found out that this was exactly my style of music.
What did you like so much about Deep Purple?
Everything, the power, it was all so powerful: the guitar player being everywhere, the heavy hammond and the vocals with those high shreaks. Also the power and the melody put together, you know. At that time I thought: I want to be able to do what that Blackmore guy does. So I really started learning, Smoke on the Water first of course, on one snare. It started off easy, after that I built it up step by step. By that time I never even got outdoors anymore at all! In fact I was very unconfident in those days, like so many other boys, but the guitar made me happy. After half a year already I started looking for a band. That was magical to me, but I didn't even know the difference between an electric and acoustic guitar! How to turn on an electric guitar was a puzzle to me, but it was fascinating. In my first band we played covers of bands like Bad Company. I was a very arrogant fellow in those days, I always considered myself the best. But it was a fact that I couldn't do anything. When I hear stuff from those days I think ""shit!". But back then I thought we were much better than the rest. I had this fixation on speed too, guitar music couldn't be fast enough.
When did you start thinking of a life as a professional musician?
That was in fact ever since I discovered The Sweet. Though I always had sidejobs, and finished my school because my parents wanted me to. I was doing the 'Atheneum' and that was really tough for me. In fact I made my way through it looking how other students did it. At the Dalton College I was the star because I was in a playback-band. I was the man, having eleven girlfriends. But I never made my homework, so I never finished my tasks. I would discover on the last day that I still had to finish fourteen tasks, so I tried to forge my teacher's signature. I went too far in those days, because -when I didn't spent extra hours on those tasks- I was finally kicked out of my school. My last chance was the Thiemstra-institute, a private school for difficult kids. The school was at the Sweelinck Square and it looked like Colditz because of the continuously shaded windows. It was horrible out there, I got into a class filled with scum, and they were all taller (!) and older than I was. They really kept me on a leash in there and I finally finished my education. But if that was a good thing or not, I can't tell. Well, I am where I am now, so I guess it was okay.
When did your career really start off?
I was in a little rock band called Mover. The teacher of my drummer had a band too, so I went there to have a look at them. The band was called Bodine and I loved it. But I was wondering if there might be small bands like that all over the country playing that kind of music. An enormous depression was at my horizon, but I decided to do an audition for Bodine as a singer. Of course I didn't think I was a great singer, but I wanted to present myself as a guitar player. That was in the days of the twin guitars, like Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. I learned to play their entire set list within two months, loaded my gear in my dad's car and had him drive me to the audition. Getting there I just started playing along with them and at the end of the rehearsal they told me I was in. But they gave me the advise to practice with simple notes and rhythms, because all I could do was play fast. Again I started doubting myself, man I was a dork. So I practiced really hard for the next year. It still was kind of boring with Bodine, they all were about ten years older than I was. That meant no partying after the shows and we didn't make big money either. We just weren't able to save up a penny at all. So I got on welfare because I didn't have time to work because of the rehearsals and interviews. The shows were super of course, fans screaming for you and enough beautiful girls, that was what I was looking for at that time. I wanted to prove myself then, now I have found my peace of mind though.
Next step was succesful hardrockband Vengeance. How did you get in the band?
One day we had a show, and Vengeance was the warm-up act. I saw those party animals flying across the stage and thought it was really cool. Afterwards I heard one of their demos and started talking to them. Some time later they phoned me and asked me if I knew a decent guitar player for them. Of course I said yes, because I already saw myself playing with them. I asked them if I could phone them back later and instantly phoned Bodine to tell them I was leaving my nest. Because that's how I saw it. I learned a lot and they were excellent musicians, Bodine had a really groovy sound, but I was never really taken seriously. The others were better musicians anyway. I hoped to have it more my way in Vengeance. I phoned them and told them I'd like the job. I found out the complete band was sitting at the phone and they were all shouting 'He's doing it!', really great. You really feel welcome like that. The times with Vengeance were pretty rough, very hectic. They were all young puppies and suddenly I was the oldest band member. They were all lunatics, and there was a lot of drinking.
All the clichés of rock 'n' roll, you mean?
Yes, especially sex and alcohol. We tore down entire hotels and there was a time that they didn't allow us to leave Germany! But after some time it all got too much for me and I felt that I couldn't express myself anymore. People were wanting rock 'n' roll like Crazy Horses or heavy Rock 'n' Roll Shower material, not rock operas. It used to be one big party on stage too and they even asked me to write a song called Wallbanger!...
...?...
It is a cocktail, try to write a song about that! But we got really far: we played three shows a week, we toured a lot (especially in Germany) and the records started selling better and better. Half the songs were party songs, the other half was serious, like Arabia, a bit more epic. But because of the many excesses Vengeance was close to an end.
How are your feelings about those days?
I never look back, but when I hear that stuff I think some songs are kind of childish. Though we were succesful, I chose for my personal life in the end, I wasn't happy in the band anymore. There were problems with people not showing up for rehearsals, plus a lot of aggression. I felt a constant pressure and tension, for example if you can't get in touch with someone by telephone. I knew we could do much more than what we were doing, we had lots of great offers, one from an american label. The management of Iron Maiden wanted us too. I was at the point of 'Do I want to go on with this or not....'. We decided to split up and a new singer joined Vengeance. I started expressing myself then, we added keyboards and stuff like that, but it was too late. In 1992 we did a very succesful goodbye tour, which gave me some money to go on. Usually we spent every dime for the band, buying stuff like stage equipment, stage-decoration like lanterns or even hanging camels! But after the goodbye tour I didn't have to use it for the band so I had some extra money.
I have an old album from 1981 by Pythagoras. That is an electronic rock project with René de Haan on keys and Bob de Jong on drums. You're on the album too. What do you remember of that?
That was in the Bodine days when I had to get used to playing slower music instead of just speedy music. I used to go to Moonlight Records in The Hague. Their owner Bob de Jong had weird stuff in his collection like krautrock. We started talking and I told him I played guitars. He told me he was a drummer and asked if I wanted to participate on their new album. They made Pink Floyd-like music, I loved it and rehearsed with them. In their studio in Loosduinen they had a real mellotron, it was a Plackband, also known as the Hague Genesis. We recorded the album there and that was freaking! There was an enormous smell of pot! I didn't smoke it, but the air around me made me tripping. René too, at one point he was so stoned, that he just slided down the keys. "Hey, that was cool", he said, that's the way things went. Bob had to shout to me during my guitar solos: "Hey, you're supposed to stop here!"
THE AYREON PROJECT
When did you make your first, really unknown and flopped solo album Pools Of Sorrow, Waves Of Joy?
After the Vengeance days I started my own band with the name Plan Nine. In the band were Peter Vink and Cleem Determeijer and a background choir. While in that band I recorded a few songs, singing myself, and they ended up with Ray's Music. They were excited about it and wanted more songs. I really hurried to record more songs and that's how that first solo disc was born, under the name Anthony. It was almost completely unrelated to rock or sympho, it had lots of styles, like country. It was a fun thing. Though it had some airplay it was a flop. That was logical because all the Vengeance fans were saying "Hey, wussy, what's this??". Plan Nine wasn't really going well either, and I discovered that I like playing with recorders on my own best to create a rock opera.
So this is where Ayreon starts?
Yes. I was more and more getting the idea that I could do this all by myself, and that I could ask guest musicians for the final recordings. I must say that Cleem was a great help. The basic idea was to make a story that took place both in the future and the past, sort of a Nostradamus thing. It started of small, but it got bigger and bigger til it is what it is now. My wife helped me out on the storyline, especially when I was stuck. Sometimes she shouted ideas from the bottom of the stairs and it would be just what I needed to keep the story going. Every day that I was working on it, I was already looking forward to the next day, those are the best moments. But I absolutely didn't have the idea that it would sell, not as a rockopera or as 'symphonic music'.
How did The Final Experiment become a released album?
The first label I contacted was SI Music (label for progressive rock, non-existing anymore, ed.). I saw that as the biggest and best opportunity. I went there and their director was freaking out over it. He made a reasonable offer, but it wasn't covering all the costs. I continued my search at at least thirty labels, but no one else wanted it. Only Phonogram was interested for a while, also because Barry Hay was on the album. But they couldn't find a hitsingle on the album. Via my contacts at Aardschok magazine I got in contact with JVC in Japan and got a deal with a nice advance fee, that was great. SI Music then said: Japan is half our market, we won't do it now. Then there was Dream Circle for Europe, a German label, but in the nick of time just before I wanted to sign with them, there was Hans van Vuuren, a bigmouth, coming around the corner. He is the director of Pseudonym Records, known from the CD releases of bands like Kayak, The Sweet, Finch and Normaal. I went to visit him and played my tape, after which he said: "How much do you want? Just tell me, I'll give it to you!" The same day, when I got home, I already found a fax from him with a great record deal. A bit later another fax came in with even a higher number on it without me even having replied yet! I liked the fact that this man liked it and really radiated his excitement about it.
His direct approach and interest in your music appealed to you?
Yes, most labels spend a lot of money on a project, but after a while they dump you. Hans just kept going and in the end I signed up with him and with JVC in Japan. In the beginning things went slowly, like a 1000 sold copies, but we noticed that things started rolling. A great help was the airplay of the song Sail Away To Avalon, the song with Barry Hay. Aside from that a lot of mouth-to-mouth commercial and support from Aardschok magazine. I settled an old conflict with Aardschok's Michiel van de Moosdijk about a Vengeance review and after that I asked his honoust opinion on The Final Experiment. My album became album of the month and later even album of the year! What really disappointed me was the negative review in SI Magazine (parallel magazine of SI Music, ed.), while their director wanted to sign me! The bad review was really unfounded and was in fact the only negative review, despite the fact that it was a magazine for this kind of music.
You already mentioned Barry Hay, macho vocalist of the Golden Earring. How was it to work with this dutch rock 'n' roll legend?
Barry had heard Vengeance's music before and thought it sounded really good so he wanted to know who produced it. That was John Sonneveld. When we were writing the lyrics to Arabia, we knew that something in them just wasn't right. John said it might be wise to have Barry have a look at it, because he is half english. He figured it out for us and wanted nothing for it except a bottle of whiskey, I thought that was great. Later on I phoned him to ask him if he would want to do a show with Vengeance in The Hague during the song Back Home. He wanted to and sang along on the song. When I was working on The Final Experiment, I phoned him again and asked him if he wanted to participate. After my explanation about the type of music he thought it was okay and I visited him in his home in The Hague. We worked through the song together and later on Barry came to my studio. We both were pretty nervous, especially because we were afraid that it might not be good enough and that we would have to cancel his part in the project! It was a special experience to stand next to him and tell him how to sing the lines. When it didn't go very well for a minute, the producer said: "Hey, you're Barry Hay aren't you?", and Barry replied: "Yes, just kick my butt!" After that he sang the song perfectly, gave me goosebumps. Also because I was standing there next to my hero doing my song, the singer that you have heard singing Radar Love all your life! And again, he did this for just a bottle of whiskey. Just too bad that later, when they asked him in a TV-interview what he was doing aside from the Golden Earring, said about Ayreon: "That was something symphonic, just a favor for a friend." Well, I just didn't want to see that I guess, he is the macho and sympho just isn't cool.
So your first album of the Ayreon project was a success. Even John de Mol was interested I think?
Endemol Productions wanted to make it a stage play, but in a way that it could be done at company parties. That meant that my story, dealing with environmental polution, might end up at companies like Shell! I really didn't think that was appropriate. They contacted me a second time and offered me a lot of money. But I didn't want to exploit my project commercially, you don't know what they might change in the project. What good is a lot of money if you're just sitting at home doing nothing, when you can create music in the same time? I wanted to save the cult I had created, it is about the fans too.
Then the second album, Actual Fantasy, a lot more electronic and a smaller number of guest musicians.
When I had finished my first album, I decided not to repeat myself, or I would have to try to make it even bigger. I didn't feel like that anyway. My stubbornness made me use my interest for electronics. In fact I combined all those factors of bands that I liked, like John Bonham drums and heavy guitars. I wanted to use vocals more as an instrument. I had a clear concept in my mind and I still think it worked out well. It sold less, but still like two-thirds of the number of The Final Experiment. I'm still 100% behind it, though now I think some songs are not as good as others. Probably I lacked some inspiration without realising it.
There was only one year between your first and second album, but two years between your second and third album. Why is that?
Of course because I did the Strange Hobby album. I mainly did that to keep myself from falling into a black hole, like after the release of my previous Ayreon album. Being a fan of sixties music I decided to give a variety of songs from those days a new, heavier sound (The Move, Beatles, Status Quo, T Rex, Pink Floyd). My manager Hans came up with the idea to release this disc, without letting anyone know who made it. We mastered it ourselves at the Abbey Road Studios with Chris Blair. But it didn't work out very well. Oor Magazine phoned to say that they didn't review cover songs, so we just told them it was I who had made the disc. After this was over and I had started working on Into The Electric Castle, Leon Goewie, ex-vocalist of Vengeance, asked me if I wanted to write some songs for him. He was working in a grocery store, and I thought that was a waste of his talent. If he would release new material, Leon could perform again, that was my motivation: within two weeks I wrote eight songs for him, we recorded it and Hans was excited too. But he only wanted to release it under the name Vengeance. I stole some of my own songs, intended for Into The Electric Castle, and there was the new Vengeance disc, titled Back From Flight 19. I'm not proud of it though, it is an album with a double morale. If I had known from the start that it would have been a Vengeance disc, I would have written more straightforward rock 'n' roll songs, if I'd still have had the ability to do that, that is. What I learned from it is that I can only do those things anymore, that I really support for a full 100%, that means Ayreon. During the move to my new house out here, I felt very useless among all the workers, doing the carpenting, drilling, sawing. But it gave me inspiration all the time, the ideas kept coming. At a certain point I had so many ideas, that I offered Hans to make a double CD. He thought I had gone insane, all those double costs like copyright costs and pressing the discs.
But still progressive again, taking a challenge?
Yes, no one was interested in a rock opera, no one makes a double studio CD, so we did. We're just this bit different, you know. The cover had to be perfect too, something like Roger Dean. Thanks to a tip from my brother, I found Jef Bertels, a great Belgian artist. Just like me he is really introvert and is creating his work all day. On top of that I propsed to idea to Hans, to sell the double CD for only a tiny bit more than the price of a regular disc. We decided to split some costs. In the beginning there was a lot of sweating, but by now I got the money back in tenfold. It's just that I want the best of the best, or else you'll just disappear in the masses. Sometimes you have to take a chance.
On Into The Electric Castle you return to the sound of antique keyboards like the minimoog synthesizer, the hammond organ and the sound of the unbeatable mellotron. You even have a Prophet V Synthesizer right now, please explain this taste.
It is a combination of things like nostalgia ( the mellotron is known from Genesis, the minimoog from Rick Wakeman of Yes, and the hammond from Emerson, Lake & Palmer) and the great sound of these things, a shrieking minimoog or a whining mellotron. Modern equipment seems to sound great, but in the total you can't hear them. Analog keys are able to do that, they have volume and they sound good without adding several effects.
Again you opened a huge can of singers. Not an unimpressive list, but didn't you have the absolute top in mind in the beginning?
Yes, I have a big box with all my correspondence. For example this is a letter from Donovan (who didn't dare to do it and recommended Jon Anderson!). Furthermore letters from amongst others Kate Bush and Paul McCartney. Black Sabbath's Tony Martin wanted 20000 pounds, which I thought was way too much, especially for a singer who is not that well-known.
What about my former sympho-messiah, Fish? Is he still in the Fishious circle of his 'misplaced childhood'?
Yes. It is hard to get through to him: the radio is covering a soccer game, the TV is turned on, he's surfing the internet with a book in his lap. So you think he doesn't hear you when you're talking to him, but he knows exactly what you said. The drinking was incredible, there is no way to keep up with him. Even after switching to other liquids it just got too much for me, but Fish kept going. But he was going through a difficult time, his last album wasn't doing too good and his tour only cost him money. He also had to sell the place where he was living. The first day I got there it was a complete chaos, there were many fans and press. Fish was even in the newspapers and on TV with an interview about his financial situation. When we started playing records at night it got really cosy though and we discovered that we had a very similar taste in music in the old days. An album of T Rex was for both of us the first album we ever bought.
Do you notice on a moment like that that you can actually get through to him, as a person?
Well, he is an actor, he is very good at that and is a great improvisor. When he is singing as well as other times. I was scared for his voice, with all that partying, like with soccer teams who visited him for a complete week. At that time he hardly had a voice left, so I thought: what is this going to be! but he is such a good actor, in his singing too. Fish is no Ronnie James Dio or Steve Walsh (Kansas), who can really hit a note. But he has a very intrusive way of telling whatever he has to tell. That is exactly what I needed on my album, someone with an expression like that and on top of that the scottish accent. He didn't miss a note either.
He seems very sensitive to criticism.
Yes, because when he asked me what I thought of it I told him that I wanted to sit at home and listen to it while I was relaxed. He looked a bit irritated then, because of course he had expected me to respond very enthousiastically. He looked at the technician and said with a grin: 'I hate this guy'. His taste is very wide and he wants to express it all in his music.. He is doing what his heart tells him to do. I am very happy though that a lot of people have told me that Fish's contribution to my album is the best thing he has done in years.
Another singer is Peter Daltrey from Kaleidoscope, a legendary psychedelic band from the sixties? Was this a hero from your youth?
In my twenties I got interested in sixties music en searched for all those bands, well-known as well as unknown. That's how I found that Nuggets-series with all those psychedelic bands. It had a track from the english band Kaleidoscope, titled Jenny Artichoke. I thought it was their only material, but still tried looking for more. That of course is fun, a search for more of their music. Finally I stumbled on their CD somewhere in England, which made it even better. It was a vinyl for about 80 dutch guilders. "Woow, let's buy it!" It was exactly the music I liked. In the Record Collector I read that the solo albums by Peter Daltrey had been released in Japan. I phoned that record label and asked them if they could get me in touch with him. I ordered his records right away. Two weeks later I got a letter from him in which he said that I was the first one to buy his disc, he didn't even had it himself! So I contacted my hero and I sent him all my CD's. He wrote back that he thought it was pretty good and that it was great that I liked his music. We have stayed in touch after that, I even played guitar on one of his albums. After I wrote him I was working on Into The Electric Castle and was looking for singers (Donovan, Kate Bush) he said: 'I owe you a favor.' It seemed a great idea to have him do the narration. I told him that that was what I wanted, explained it to him and within two weeks a pile of paper arrived! Then he took a plane to come over here for a weekend, and he even did some interviews here.
How did you get in touch with Thijs van Leer?
That went via keyboardist/sf-writer Wim Stold, of Maryson, a dutch progressive rock band. On their last disc On Goes The Quest (Master Magician 2) Thijs van Leer played. Via Wim I sent my disc The Final Experiment to Thijs and he liked it a lot. Getting in touch with Thijs in person was very difficult, at first via his wife. What a type...like: "Thijs isn't doing that sort of music anymore, he really won't play on your little album." Then his manager said he couldn't do it, because of his band (the new Focus). Then I phoned him and asked him if he could send back my tape with ideas for Into The Electric Castle so I could ask another flute player. and suddenly he said he would play his part and came over to my house. He seems a bit arrogant, but he knows both how to play and how to improvise like the best. We worked perfectly together and we did one extra five minute song. So Thijs says: 'Well, that's another 1000 guilders please.' but a day later I got a fax saying that he thought my music -even before the final mix- was at a great musical level and that he was open for further musical dialogs!'
How was your collaboration with Ton Scherpenzeel?
He is a topmusician and a superfriendly guy. Hans already knew him from the CD-releases of the Kayak albums. I phoned him and told him I was a fan of Kayak. After that I sent him my music which he appeared to like. Of course it was in the line of Kayak's Merlin-album. When I asked him to play a solo he told me that that really wasn't his specialty. Ton prefers orchestrations and melody lines for the singers. But I told him I had seen him with Camel, freaking out on that Prophet V synthesizer. After that he agreed and he played a superfast great solo for me at home. He did all this for free.
Could you tell us a bit about Robby Valentine, who isn't that well-known over here?
He's a true virtuoso. He has a lot of success with his albums in Japan. Robbie is covered with make-up and has long died hair, in other words a huge Queen-fan. I played some guitar parts for him and he made complete symphonies out of them, really incredible. Initially I only wanted him for one song, but it turned out to be four. Also a few synthesizer-solos; he hadn't done it for twelve years, but he just pulled it off!
You also had Clive Nolan on the album, the keyboardwizard of neo-progressive rock (Pendragon, Shadowland and Arena). Why did you want him on the disc?
At his shows I was really impressed by his solos on those keyboards at the top of his rack, yup... the minimoog. Via Hans I was able to contact him and asked him if he knew what sound I meant. He knew immediately, I sent him the tape with the part that I wanted him to play and he sent back the solo a while later. Clive regretted that his contribution was so small. He wants a bit more space on my next album. He was really startled when I asked him how much he wanted for his role. Because normally anyone who knows him just assumes he does things like that for free. He was so confused that he didn't want anything. I just sent him a bunch of discs.
Back to the success of Into The Electric Castle: CD of the month in Aardschok magazine and CD of the week in Veronica TV-magazine. Is it still going that well?
My album was disc of the month in German Rock Hard magazine. That is the second largest market for music in the world, maybe even the largest when it comes to heavy rock! That really was a huge surprise! In other German magazines there were really positive reviews too and I have done a lot of interviews there already. The number of sold copies already exceeds my previous two albums together. In fact that is ridiculous, because it has no hitsingle, no video, there is no airplay and I don't perform live. But the fun thing is that I've been in the Top 100 album charts for eight weeks already, that is written proof.
What did you think of the response in the dutch magazines?
All of them were positive, unanimous. Only Music Maker was wondering 'who was waiting for this'. You can hardly find in their review what my album actually sounds like. While I would expect that from a specialised magazine like that. I think it sounds superb, and that's what everyone tells me. Then talk about it, go in depth about it. Maybe they prefer to hear bunglebands like Ceasar.
Are you, now that the CD is finished, going to sit back and relax or have you already started something new?
I can't sit back and relax. No, after finishing an album I immediately stop enjoying it. Of course I am glad when it sells good and so many people are enjoying it. And what does enjoying mean anyway? You sit down on the couch like: ah, and now I am enjoying my success? I don't think so? When something is done, it is done and part of the public. Before it is done it is yours and you work on it by yourself.
What music can draw your attention at present?
Porcupine Tree in the first place. Spock's Beard of course, I saw them live at Tivoli at the beginning of november. Aside from that Radiohead, the latest King's X, but also IQ and Arena. That's about it.
What is your alltime album top 5?
I wrote that down one day, let me see. Errrr, everything by the Beatles, Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin.
A bit more specific please!
Okay then: Magical Mystery Tour by the Beatles, Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd and III by Led Zeppelin. Then Spartacus by Triumvirat and the 'best of' disc Atlantic Years by Emerson, Lake & Palmer, which contains exactly those songs that I liked. I also like Jethro Tull and Hawkwind, I have all their material. And White Noise, maybe the first psychedelic band, is very good. And Rainbow Rising, that's superb.
The Final Question: do you have an ultimate musical wish?
All I am doing is to make my musical wishes come true. I am in a position that enables me to do that. What seems great to me is to work with David Gilmour, his voice is great. What I am doing now is working on the release of both a very mellow and a heavy disc. So you can choose what you buy, one or both. The mellow album is more clear in my head right now: a lot of analog synthesizers, songs between Pink Floyd and the Beatles, maybe even songs suitable to be a single disc. I have some material already, but it is going slowly. Inspiration to me is nothing more than to feel good and grab your guitar. It is a vicious circle too: to be inspired you have to feel good, but you only feel good after you get inspiration, you get it? You have to break that circle. Right now, I have like 20 CD's waiting for me every night, so I can look forward to that all day and I can check them out on the Internet. And in the evening I lie down with my head between the speakers!